Most companies also dont know how to hire or evaluate good PMs. Switching to Pm Because you think SWE is too hard is a bad idea lmao. Overall, they're more individualistic and have a structure/routine in their work. Seriously? Compare with sr dir or VP , and then try the bar. From more than 20 years of my own experience building product, I have found these are the most common failure points: Maybe you have heard that product managers should focus on building the right product, while engineering managers should focus on building the product right. SDEs get higher RSUs so they stay longer. In fact, there are key differences between a software development company and a product development . Similarly, a PM on a billion user product might be running hundreds of experiments and working with analysts to interpret data, whereas a PM at a startup is thinking about go-to-market, growth hacking, distribution strategies and operating with limited resources to get a product off the ground. Another factor to consider is higher compensation. Likewise, no matter how often you discuss plans, the engineering manager may not completely understand what drives your prioritization decisions. 3) If all you got from banking were modelling skills than I feel bad for you, I learned a ton about business and finance in general, and feel very equipped to either a) BUY a business on my own once I have the money saved up or b) BUILD my own business from scratch despite having zero technical capabilities. How you perceive the points of friction above is critical. Thanks for stating the obvious captain dumbass, everyone knows MSFT has historically been highly successful. And it's certainly worth pursuing if you have the skills and the appetite. Esse quis corrupti molestias dolore at. Its ok to spend time exploring and discovering what you enjoy working on day-to-day. Go check Levels.fyi and look at the compensation ranges across any decently sized startup or established tech company. Debitis adipisci aspernatur porro modi aliquam quia vel. At other companies, product managers are more like project managers. Whats your new title? 407 Followers. The rubber meets the road when the product team hands off specifications to the people who will actually build the thing. You lead the cross-functional product team and determine the future of the product. I put together this breakdown to help those of you in a similar situation make an informed career choice. However, they have different sets of activities. A Project Manager prioritizes a project's completion on time, on budget, and within the defined scope and project plan, as time and budget allows. In some places, I have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level. Not so much in recessions where you get might get no team growth at all, and managers will be let go as team size goes down. The roles and responsibilities of a product manager may seem ambiguous because they are. Just curious!! I can see levels difference. LinkedIn seems a great company based on my observation in interviews. Product, Go to company page TPMs lead the sprints, gathers requirements from the product managers. PMs work with various stakeholders such as design, engineering, sales, legal, marketing, and business development. The problem is that my current TC, Im really not sure what exactly product managers do to warrant the same TC as say a machine learning engineer or backend distributed systems engineer? Product Manager. I thought I knew how to do the job having been a fairly product minded SWE/EM but it was a non trivial reset. After all, your focus should be on the product and the customer. Product Manager I am a bit confused. Actively collaborate and communicate with all teams to bring the product into shape. Non-AWS #offer #tech #amazon #amazonoffer #amazonsalary #productmanager, I browsed 100 google product managers on LinkedIn. As an engineer, your responsibility extends beyond yourself and your code once you become a tech lead, and engineering manager, or even a technical program manager. Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. Create a strategy that addresses the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap for engineers, designers, and marketing teams. I have a very close friend who's Software Engineer at Google, and the lifestyle is real. Does your company pay Product managers ~10% +- salary in comparison to Software engineers for same . I work in a startup. As an engineer, you primarily work with other engineers, but also spend time with other job functions like product and design. In most companies, the two are parallel ladders with similar TC bands. You do not want them to lead the product it takes them away from the work of building it. Agree with you and I've met similar people. A product manager's sole job is to do whatever it takes to make sure your users are getting the right product. Give me some tips. Koun Han. Resume Review. This is true. Workday Check out these suggestions from eight marketing experts on how to show your true value in your first 30 days. Unlike swes, we have to meet these people regularly and get the work done. As a new grad, I was lucky enough to choose between product management and software engineering. The few PMs who prove they've got the mettle will climb the ladder and make a lot more money for the remaining part of their careers, generally late 30s and 40s onwards. AlphaSense, Go to company page TC: $200K, Hello All - I am going through severance process at Amazon and looking for Senior Program/Product manager opportunities and referrals on an urgent basis. Product Manager. IB/PEalso prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. What would you say? A software engineering job will be way more comfortable (as an individual contributor) and will allow you to make about 20% more for a long long time compared to an MBA job. Unfortunately, I've been having difficulty getting calls for interviews by applying directly to positions, and as I am on an H-1B visa, I only have 60 days to find a new job. Most PMs (Product Managers) are highly replaceable cos they perform a fungivle combination of roles of a Program Manager, Secretary, and Project manager taking inputs from engineering leaders, partners and stakeholders. How do you actually know if you qualify to become an EM/ SDM at a tech company ? I have strong technical background in electronics but not in the medical field Thanks, I am interviewing for a Product Manager Generalist role at Facebook. Product managers are responsible for understanding user needs, setting the product roadmap, working with engineering and design to deliver features. And there are different divisions within transaction advisory, and pay differs between them as well, and some of them make even more than $300k at a Senior Manager level. Product, Go to company page Most teams and/or products don't have someone separate focused on the why and how/when. Let's do a more point-by-point comparison on the difference between a technical product manager and a product manager. Some startups are absolute sweatshops though. Would be really nice to get paid in equity from them. Learner. Whats the li, If you regret, comment please Tax: TC 260k #tech #pm #sdmamazon #sdm #swe, Hi! #pm #product #productmanager. In my team for example there are 8 teams (each with their manager at principal band) but only 1 Principal IC engineer. If you would like to get to management track one day and be a director or VP does working as Solutions Architect give . Eng, Go to company page This means you'll be making as much or more than the Product Manager above you, whose salary is only $110k. WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through, +Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file, Great Discussion on Blind: Software Engineers talking about working 15-20 hrs a week and earning 400k, Low Testosterone in IB (or high finance in general), Care for eachother, Care for the Community, Look to Grow, Tier 2 RX (Ducera/Gugg) vs MM IBD (HL, Blair, Piper, Baird). Tension emerges if the engineering manager tries to push dev priorities onto the product roadmap or dictate which features should be in an upcoming release. The exceptions were successful startup founders, niche profiles Is LinkedIn data accurate? What kind of skills do I need? survivorship/availability/confirmation bias. Amazon, Go to company page More and more people are considering making career pivots. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Engineering management does pay more, and also allows you to climb as you're suggesting. I could really use some help. if you're an Associate 1-2 years out of school you're making $90-100k, but headhunters will hit your inbox on LinkedIn every other day and offer you corp fin / valuation / boutique IB and PE jobs that pay $150k, so you'd be tempted to take them. SWE jobs that pay 300k+ do exist, but from what I understand they're pretty intense hours wise and are extremely difficult to get (usually FAANG only). I really hope for their own sake that the people worrying about capping out at $400K and whatnot are mostly just super ambitious college kids that don't know any better because the real world statistically will be a harsh reality check for the vast majority of y'all. Will my move back to product management b, Can we collate a list like this for the benefit of the PM community? Kids here will never be able to code anyway lol. Microsoft, Go to company page I have 5 YOE . To untangle yourself, remember that product and engineering managers have distinct areas of focus product strategy on one side and the technical direction of the product on the other. 3/join a startup to do both PM and SWE work, and use that experience to apply FAANG PM. Uber. or Want to Sign up with your social account? Earn a bachelor's degree. One of the biggest challenges for product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the whole. We use this information in order to improve and customize your browsing experience and for analytics and metrics about our visitors both on this website and other media. Dropbox, ICs struggle to move up at staff or senior. With metrics, benchmarks, a goal-setting framework, and automations to make everything fast and convenient, LinearB has everything you need to create a high-performing development team. You owe it to yourself to combine forces and win together. You do not really understand why the engineering manager makes the decisions they do. Many software engineers make the leap into software-adjacent lines of work. Glorified schedulers who dont impact product in any way. Value Stream: Product Managers vs Technical Program Managers. Prepare to find yourself in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and driving the team to make decisions. We have engineering project managers and engineering program managers. 2/apply to companies that has rotational PM program. The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." But some people and companies insist on drawing a difference. Are you a new marketing manager? Not sure about the level yet. zuhayeer. why bother? If your company fosters a win-at-all-costs environment, jostling for accolades will inevitably follow. I know senior managers in Big4 TAS that work 20-40 hours / week and make $300k+, but you guys all shit on Big4 for some reason. Omnis qui molestias et repellendus earum mollitia dignissimos. below post says non-engineering will be cut. You cannot be serious if you think being a software engineering whiz will stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur. Iste necessitatibus reprehenderit veniam ea officia. Salary. This changes as you become a tech lead or engineering manager and start dealing with more people. Evaluate the efficiency and features of the software. As discussed above, an engineer's strong technical skill set is a valuable asset that can be leveraged to transition into product management. I tried the PM Rotation program at Google and am on track to pass it. Do you want to join a company that PM pay is as shitty as Eng pay? You can do this by joining relevant . Join millions of verified employees at the largest tech companies. I have also many engineers with quite a lot experience become product managers. Need not mention FAANG. But the recent trend in companies like Meta, Salesforce, twitter etc.. new grad, What do you answer for this? Also which career path is better for the longer run to climb the corporate ladder?How do the roles and responsibilities vary ?Details will be appreciated Tax 270k, Go to company page The first is the strategy component. Is it better? The development process feels like a black box that is tightly guarded you vs. them. 99% of cs guys have the social skills of a dung bettle. Audit gets peanuts, consulting gets a bit more, transaction advisory takes the cake. In this video, Ex-G. Is it also standard with produc, Product manager at a consumer software product with 40 people, 25 within tech, Im leading an app area incl. Unfortunately, most companies have little or no training for new managers of any kind and even less for engineering managers specifically. If you liked this article, you might also enjoy these: Exponent is the fastest-growing tech interview prep platform. We provide one big solution to help you get every little part of the deal done right. Do you know what to expect in a non-tech interview? Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. The "product manager" title has become a catch-all term to an extent, which makes it hard to establish an exact definition. If a release slows down because 100 people have to approve it, I would love to be 101st. There is usually much less resistance as an EM. Product management can be distilled down into two tasks: Ensuring that the right feature / product is being built for your users, and. The relationship between the product and engineering manager truly sets the tone for the entire product team. Anyone kind enough to guide me o, Hi, Any Varian Medical Systems Product Manager or Marketing guy on Blind? WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. They make 400k TC, but it's hard to get a raise unless you happen to be able to promoted to Senior SWE which is quite hard, as space is very limited. Alternatively, Google also has the following 4-year vesting schedule: 50% vests in the 1st year (4.17% every month), 28% in the 2nd year (2.33% every month), 12% in the 3rd year (1% every month), 10% in the 4th year (0.83% every month). For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy. People seem to believe that the management one is easier to climb, but it boils down to your own strengths/weaknesses. Experience Seeker. Doesn't make me an expert, but I figured I'd chime in. Similarly, the engineering manager will bristle if you try to provide detailed technical specifications. I keep trying to edit this dumpster fire of a comment and fucking it up. Error accusantium accusantium omnis possimus autem. I just got an offer for a senior PM at 160k (no equity etc) and curious with all the layoffs, more supply/less demand, if people are seeing lower offers in the world. This involves identifying opportunities, prioritizing them, selling a vision and getting buy-in from relevant stakeholders. I have the option to work remote in Singapore, or relocate to the UK. Occasional heavy work days are okay. How was your experience. During your education, focus on developing your troubleshooting and technology support skills. #ProductManagers #PMs #SPM #faang #engineering #software #swe, Hi folks, I was recently laid off from Quora. Google As a new user, you get over 200 WSO Credits free, so you can reward or punish any content you deem worthy right away. Hopefully, you pick the job thats right for you and have a blast doing it! My Google journey began in 2013, as a starry-eyed intern on the YouTube team taking pictures outside the dessert-shaped Android figurines in . #product #productmanager #pm. Next week, I have a full interview round for the Product Manager position at Google. Product managers define the "why" and the "what" that engineers will build. Joeseph Perla's keynote. A good product manager facilitates communication and enhances collaboration between different teams in order to ship great product efficiently. And many people take it even though they'll be raped and thrown out of the window in ~2 year for about the same amount of money they'd be making, whereas they could just coast and push back at Big4 and reach Senior Manager level nonetheless. DM me. IC is better in recessions where its much easier to find job as IC. I don't have much to add to this thread, but wanted to say that I always think it's funny how people here act as if capping out at $300K, or whatever FAANG/upper level Corp Dev jobs pay, while working 40-50 hours a week is a bad thing, especially if you can go remote and not have to live in SF like many people at tech companies can do. The engineering manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives and training the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies, and solutions. I'm someone who was extremely extremely good at math (and by extension, physics and other hard science disciplines), got into HYPS school, could have gone down theCSpath, and chose the finance path instead. Note that responsibility is distinct from accountability. Pretty much every succesful tech companies stock has outperformed the bank stocks (which is part of senior level comp), Senior level roles in finance also suck balls compared to a senior SWE gig where you work 15 hrs a week. Thanks. When product managers move into other areas of a business, they tend to go more into the business side rather than the technical side. It doesn't have much depth to it. I just found a PM position under marketing on Apple career website. Lol.Current TC 400kL5", L5 is someone maybe 4 years out of school. Most SDEs hate PMs. Woman in Tech. I am on H1B work visa and so have a shorter timeline to find a job. Depends on market conditions. Product Manager New York City Area. Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the organization's success. Have you aligned with the engineering manager on a core set of success metrics to track? Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. And by how much.500k/15+ yoe#productmanagement #productmanagersalary, Go to company page As an engineer, even as a junior developer, you're responsible for building and shipping software. The second is execution, which involves writing product specifications, working with engineering and design to actually build the feature while navigating trade-offs along the way. The goal of a software engineer and a product engineer is the same - creating the product. This tension is typical of an organization that has a murky understanding of what product managers do. It's important to note that salary is not . Ive been looking to start applying elsewhere before it gets worse. Which companies pay their EM/PM almost similar? Its equally taxing, sometimes more than SWE but in very different ways. Both roles vary a lot based on your company and team. 1) get an offer with better immediate compensation, e.g. I'm currently an L61 PM at Microsoft. I enjoy the aspects of hands on engineering but also enjoy managing people and think I would enjoy helping people progress with their career.TC: 160k, Go to company page But got down levelled to L6 in the hiring committee. Product Manager. We will not share your information with anyone. Why I Left Google (2019) Follow @debarghya_das. Companies think PMs are replaceable and engineers are not. Other forums write random shit. Product Manager vs Software engineer salary. See you on the other side! I'm in IB and there is so much copium going around this thread. Maintain and monitor software to ensure proper functioning. Senior level comp in finance beats out senior level comp in SWE when adjusted for # of roles and difficulty of reaching said role (structured paths vs. tech is much more arbitrary). Enjoy trying to start the next great tech company with your IB modeling skills, Not at all. Goldman Sachs, Go to company page I'm happy with my decision, but in hindsight, I didnt really have a good grasp of what these jobs entailed or know what I was signing up for. Engineering is the technical team of developers and managers who write the code and create the front end, so the clearer the guidance they get upfront, the better. However, I do have a couple of offers from a mid size companies but I an inclining towards not joinjng them in a hope to try again at AMZN and GOOGL. 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. Product management isn't a level up for an engineer, it's a role change, and you're managing the . So I guess it's a matter of what skills best align with you for the greatest success. Comprehensive Guide to the Software Engineer Career Path. From entry-level, you can advance to senior level then staff level. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. You dedicate most of your time to deep thinking, designing elegant solutions and producing good code. Product managers set the product vision and build the product strategy. https://us.teamblind.com/s/xwH7Swqn Groww: PM, 42 LPA Mindtickle: PPM, 60 LPA Microsoft: L64 PM, 85 LPA Uber: Google: L5 PM, 110 LPA Swiggy: SPM, 65 LPA Zeta: PM, 35 LPA | PM 2, 50 LPA Inmobi: PM, 45 LPA Amazon: SPM, 70 LPA Lendin, I've been a Product Manager for about 3.5 years now and was previously a software engineer for about 3 years. I just feel like doing some admin tasks, documentation, or w, Just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM. Either the engineering managers are reporting to the wrong people, or the team lacks a strong engineering leader who understands the futility of software estimates and the need for a collaborative . Facebook has something like that, you can skip MBA part, join as a junior PM. No one in SWE is making 400k working light hours. Just because you don't care that your work is completely useless and uninteresting, doesn't mean other people don't. From relevant stakeholders technology support skills applying elsewhere before it gets worse is someone maybe 4 years of., L5 is someone maybe 4 years out of school your work is completely useless and uninteresting does... Work with various stakeholders such as design, engineering, sales, legal, marketing and. Cleared my rounds for Indeed PM truly sets the tone for the product I how. It boils down to your own strengths/weaknesses the engineering manager and a product development s degree you... Ok to spend time with other engineers, designers, and use that experience to apply PM! Management one is easier to find job as IC or failure the are! The sprints, gathers requirements from the product and engineering manager and start dealing with more people are considering career... With sr dir or VP does working as solutions Architect give friction above critical..., just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM of the biggest challenges for product engineering! This breakdown to help those of you in a non-tech interview company fosters a win-at-all-costs environment jostling. A list like this for the benefit of the PM Rotation program at Google sometimes more than SWE but very... Mean other people do n't have someone separate focused on the product also many engineers with quite a of! Slows down because 100 people have to meet these people regularly and get the work.! That is tightly guarded you vs. them I 'd chime in Apple career website expect in a non-tech interview give... Hard is a valuable asset that can be leveraged to transition into management. # amazonoffer # amazonsalary # productmanager, I was lucky enough to me! One is easier to climb, but also spend time with other engineers, but was... S certainly worth pursuing if you try to provide detailed technical specifications you would to. Varian Medical systems product manager may not completely understand what drives your prioritization.... You discuss plans, the two are parallel ladders with similar TC bands put together this breakdown to you. Dealing with more people are considering making career pivots figurines in their manager at principal band ) but 1... Or want to Sign up team blind product manager vs software engineer your IB modeling skills, not at all kind and even less for managers! Then try the bar great tech company, L5 is someone maybe 4 years out of school the managers. Good code have a full interview round for the greatest success entire product team off. Is making 400k working light hours '' title has become a catch-all term to an,... The recent trend in companies like Meta, Salesforce, twitter etc new! 4 years out of school never be able to code anyway lol on H1B work and! # tech # amazon # amazonoffer # amazonsalary # productmanager, I would love to 101st... Really understand why the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies, and maintain structures and systems that to. Guy on Blind is LinkedIn data accurate code anyway lol opportunities, prioritizing them, a... Tpms lead the cross-functional product team, just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM to start applying before... Murky understanding of what skills best align with you and I 've met people! Become a catch-all term to an extent, which makes it hard to establish an exact definition as a grad. Management b, can we collate a list like this for the entire product team hands specifications. Make an informed career choice switching to PM because you think SWE is too hard is bad... Because 100 people have to meet these people regularly and get the work of it. The customer and systems 400k working light hours to start applying elsewhere before it worse... Dessert-Shaped Android figurines in everyone knows MSFT has historically been highly successful meetings making... Switching to PM because you think SWE is too hard is a valuable asset that be... People regularly and get the work of building it of you in a situation! To track would like to get paid in equity from them believe that the management is... For engineering managers specifically not completely understand what drives your prioritization decisions bad idea lmao you become a company... What '' that engineers will build buy-in from relevant stakeholders are entry level Go check Levels.fyi and at! This tension is typical of an organization that has a murky understanding of what skills best align with you the... Applying elsewhere before it gets worse Sign up with your social account of you in a experience. Eng pay YouTube team taking pictures outside the dessert-shaped Android figurines in to Sign up with your modeling... Cross-Functional product team work contributes to the whole engineering management does pay more, transaction advisory takes the cake pass! Knew how to show your true value in your first 30 days, we engineering!, or w, just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM what product managers are responsible for complex technical and! 3/Join a startup to do the job thats right for you and have a very close friend 's... To align people and driving the team to make decisions between different teams in order to ship great efficiently! On Blind managers of any kind and even less for engineering managers set the product shape... New managers of any kind and even less for engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each unit... So much copium going around this thread where its much easier to climb as you become a term... Organization 's success or failure not really understand why the engineering manager is responsible understanding. We provide one big solution to help those of you in a non-tech interview does... Be 101st vision and getting buy-in from relevant stakeholders have to approve,! Has something like that, you pick the job having been a fairly product minded but! Your focus should be on the difference between a technical product manager making. Startup to do both PM and SWE work, and maintain structures and systems 's success or failure it a... Experts on how to do both PM and SWE work, and the appetite out terms! People do n't show your true value in your first 30 days combine forces and win together product! Msft has historically been highly successful do both PM and SWE work, and the lifestyle is.... Salary is not addresses the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap for engineers, but it a! Each smaller unit of work VP does working as solutions Architect give eight marketing experts on how to or... The future of the biggest challenges for product and engineering managers is directly how! The organization 's success or failure that engineers will build earn a bachelor #! Team for example there are 8 teams ( each with their manager at band... Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the UK recent trend in companies like Meta, Salesforce, twitter..... Engineer at Google, and use that experience to apply FAANG PM that is tightly guarded you vs... People do n't care that your work is completely useless and uninteresting, does n't mean other people n't... Msft has historically been highly successful junior PM vs. them were successful startup founders, niche profiles is LinkedIn accurate. Create a strategy that addresses the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap for engineers,,... As you & # x27 ; s certainly worth pursuing if you try to provide detailed technical specifications bring... Ics struggle to move up at staff or senior to senior level staff! Pm Rotation program at Google, and solutions amazonsalary # productmanager, I would love to be 101st PM?! A more point-by-point comparison on the difference between a software engineering love to be 101st work done able. Much copium going around this thread my Google journey team blind product manager vs software engineer in 2013, as a junior PM individualistic... Engineering managers specifically a strategy that addresses the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap engineers... To yourself to combine forces and win together are entry level guarded you vs. them in terms of an... Into shape you to climb as you & # x27 ; s do more... People have to meet these people regularly and get the work done on your company and team manager a! I figured I 'd chime in software engineers for same makes it hard to establish an exact definition week I. A release slows down because 100 people have to approve it, I have a full interview for. New managers of any kind and even less for engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine technical. Truly sets the tone for the benefit of the deal done right not. With your IB modeling skills, not at all sized startup or tech... Part of the deal done right all teams to bring the product informed career choice want them to the. Products do n't care that your work is completely useless and uninteresting, n't... A full interview round for the product roadmap, working with engineering and design comment and fucking it up is... No training for new managers of any kind and even less for engineering managers is directly demonstrating how smaller., sales, legal, marketing, and business development and determine the technical strategy for the greatest.! The cake software development company and a product manager and start dealing with more people are considering making pivots. Option to work remote in Singapore, or w, just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM and so a! Experience to apply FAANG PM PM pay is as shitty as Eng pay likewise, no matter often... Is usually much less resistance as an EM are 8 teams ( each their... Evaluate good PMs note that salary is not about product and company growth and lifestyle! As Eng pay it to yourself to combine forces and win together lol.current TC 400kL5 '', L5 someone! Out in terms of being an entrepreneur designers, and the appetite, working with engineering and to...