I am sorry that you are in pain and may have to have surgery. I am a very grateful member of Alanon and a not so very grateful family member of the CIA( Catholic, Irish, Alcohollic) actually not Catholic anymore. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. Couldnt even stand up. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. At least until this article. To me, the urgency should be to get him out of ministry leadership entirely. They guy went to another church in the same denomination and auditioned or whatever you call it for the head preacher job. Here is what he REALLY said. Sure there are some bums out there. Should American reformed pastors who are exhibiting chronic alcohol issues be suspended or put on sabbatical from the duties of the pulpit until proper medical treatment has been satisfied and consistently verified? Talk-and-die Syndrome; taken to the hospital where they spent most of the time and effort repairing/removing his spleen; they didnt notice the slow brain-bleed/brain swelling; went critical overnight and he died the next morning. What does that mean? I am commenting on the same statement you commented on. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. and me: That is what I was responding to. I think God understands this. At least, from the description. Im not sure about that. @ Velour: As far as CPS removing his kids goes, they probably wont as long as she remains in the household, unless there is proof of her abetting his drunk driving with kids in the car. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. Once again, you are a bit strong. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. Im just looking at his outward responses to not only his alcoholism, but his Ashley Madison scandal, and dont see it as a possibility for him right now. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? Methinks you proclaimed the gospel. They can clarify their views here. Totally agree with you about his church (and Ligonier, etc.) We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. If nothing else, theyll get a breather. Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. He totaled many of my grandparents vehicles. This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. And its important to try. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. Barbara said that H.U.G. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. He has to be protected from injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that it is a sickness and not a crime. Funeral Home Services for Robert are being provided by . Association of Related Churches Intervention: the RIGHT kind by STRONG people who really care about him is needed before a tragedy unfolds. Thanks. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. It can happen. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. I was thanked earlier today by one of the TWW lurkers who struggles with alcohol and was terribly upset by what was said about people with this condition. (Sometimes some of the treatment programs can create another set of problems in a person.). @Deb Thank you for the welcome. Too. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! My uncle was a drunk driver. United States. Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. To read about the extent of his sins and abuses is so depressing. none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. But as others have said, if he doesnt go into treatment voluntarily and want to get help, it will do no good. The 19-year old mother died, leaving s two-year old without a mother. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. Every person is different. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). . Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. I am grateful that R.C. Pennsylvania. Velour wrote: How would permitting Sproul Jr. to remain a pastor, or in regular attendance at any church, treat his alcoholism, or treat or correct his tendency to visit cheating sites, or to bully other people? Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. And yes, Dark Ages applies to how the church mishandled each one of these situations. They got it right. He certainly has been respected for years, especially in Reformed church circles. First of all, it can be pretty hard to define just what gossip is. Under Sproul's direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects. H.A. Velour wrote: Yes, she and I are in agreement on that point. I do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. I have to have a blood sugar reading within certain limits in order to be allowed to drive. @ refugee: Why are you addressing that to me? Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. However reading your narrative (and others) has given me much to think about. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. But I have not seen anyone say, Kick them out of the church! Im just saying that secular psychology or psychiatry or medications are not always successful or helpful in treating various issues, either, at least not for everyone. RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? Seek help! It was as a college freshman that R.C. He had always been so nice before, but that made me feel that I couldnt trust him. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? There are phone books with that same information. Only in the past few months have I started posting a little here. I offered H.A. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. 3. a rapist, . That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. and me. More than anything thats what his parents should have been concerned about all these years. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Excuses it. Just one grandparent can lead you to many Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? That is them saying that, not me. Haha. Just because that information wasnt provided, however, doesnt mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). Okrapod is a doctor How do you see it different from me? Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. But I wouldnt support putting him out of the church the way hes put others out. OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. And his family needs it as well for living with a problem drinker. came to pick me up in his car. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. I did some research. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. Hes been a heavy drinker the majority of his life and hes proud of it. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. Any alcoholism (whether helplessly dependent, wantonly revelling in, or anywhere in between) going on in Mr Sprouls life is going on in the life of a prominent minister who claims (and, it would appear, wields) authority over other believers. Many of us have been abused in our families of origin, which is bad enough. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. Sadly, too many churches disapprove of love and kindness, or cherry pick who is deserving. I dont think we can assume that a person not mentioning getting treatment in a blog post means they dont believe in people getting treatment. 4. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. I think they have missed the entire point of Rom. Parental instincts are to protect your child at all costs. Im new here, havent been to this website before. In order for the body of Christ to function properly each Christ believer must follow Jesus Christ first and foremost. I see alcoholism as a problem that requires medical attention and intervention, no matter what a person believes. His mother died on the same day that his son RC Jr was born, on July 1, 1965 (obituary says July 3, 1965). Haha. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Her parents didnt get to see her graduate from high school or college. @ Claire: For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. But to take that info and post it here? What does that mean? We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. So I was only saying what the Bible says. If he wants church support, hes going to have to change churches, I think. And wisdom to know the difference. Also, that particular passage(I probably should read it again) does not speak of putting people out of church, only of believers not having fellowship with people who do the things described in that passage not even having a meal with them. Hi Julie Anne, No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. Not born again huh? I responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. Sounds like Alcoholic Logic to me. I wasnt just a doormat with the word Welcome written on me, I was wall-to-wall carpeting!. After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. As recovering alcoholic Steven King put it, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. Sproul Jr.s case raises. and me that she believes that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church and that the problem and H.U.G. Church Discipline I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. We went over this last night. . Dr. R.C. I dont know if its a churchs responsibility or not to pressure or cajole someone with a problem into some kind of treatment. Thanks ever so much. Apparently you dont understand the nature of alcoholism if you dont think his case is bad enough. and me. That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. But there is very good help for many problems that has helped and changed peoples lives. That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. I still think Im justified in taking offense by such a term. And I dont have any sympathy for Driscoll. I dont know. Then as soon as they express repentance (they dont have to show it, they just have to say the word), theyre restored, and everyone else is supposed to show understanding and forgiveness. Unfortunately, it is usually an entirely different story getting those scenarios to take place. Because DUIs are manly I think what I am trying yo say is each person stands before God on his/her own.were we guilty of our sons choices,? She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. I hope they do. Perhaps on my wedding anniversary. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. They loved her. R.C. Our secretary had to make arrangements (many times) to have him picked up from a bar / tavern because of his condition due to drinking. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. Driving drunk with two minors nettedhim two felony charges. It is an old tactic that sadly a lot of leaders have used for a long time that has allowed them to hide their sin and or at least questionable actions. If a person backslides then they teach this person never was a true believer really never given irresistible grace.. Or would you see the situation differently? She was born April 17, 1947 at Baltimore, MD a daughter of the late Phillip Geppi and Rita Geppi who survives at Belington. He passed out at the wheel. Even that helped. 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.. She needed that love. The former statement had stronger language. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. I described this happening upthread. Ironically, the is no mandate or example in the Bible for accountability groups. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? If it is incorrect then Im not seeing it. She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . I agree that he should lose his job for his abuses and that he should not be enabled. I think Sproul is a copy of Mark Driscoll. Tragedy does not cause alcoholism. They should be more vivid. The love and truth and power of God can accomplish things which man cannot even imagine. (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour.). Remember Ashley Madison? Ive been a ligonier for years . I see getting someone into treatment for a major addiction as the responsible thing for a church/employer to do as well as a Christian act of mercy. or a swindler [scams, cons] Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). I concluded RC got off because he is a preachers son. It matters not if the problem is a sickness or a moral failure. While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. The road to Mendota was very long and wound sharply through thick woods. and I personally think I was a piece of crap uncle but thats me. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. We must try to get help for suffering people: medical intervention AND psychiatric intervention. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Most of us are in agreement that Sproul Jr. needs treatment for alcoholism. . But with my Christian friends and family I am often second guessed. Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and He will lead us to apply those scriptures with grace and truth. These accounts can be found in many places on the internet. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. May I suggest that we all pray for people who are in despair? All this to say, I am so very glad you survived! Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? While its good that he is in therapy, where is his accountability with other recovering alcoholics? 1939 R. C. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA as Robert Charles Sproul. This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. And they dont. where driving under the influence is concerned, makes things patently clear. and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? As far as Im concerned most churches are incompetent to even lend the kind of support to the families of alkies that they need, and they should probably just stay out of it. Right. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. You get police involved if he is driving under the influence. and who was reeling from Fridays put downs and for calls to kick alcoholics out of churches. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. Sproul is with the Lord now. He is also charming, manipulative, an involved father and a liar. To paraphrase a 1950s interview with a trailer-trash Ku Kluxer: It was spiritual abuse, a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. Acting like a sixteen-year-old boy is not manly, it is obnoxious and childish. 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